Lotus Elan

Reply to Rohan Hodges

PostPost by: lotuselanman » Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:01 am

Gidday,
I agree with what you say except : # 1 : A 170 HP road useable engine is going to cost a lot of money and not be docile.
# 2 : A Zetec producing 170 HP is a very under stressed unit, calm and tranquil.
# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.
# 4 : A Zetec can be removed and replaced with the old TC returning the car to original ?
Each to there own, for me the Z is the way to go. Not that I am bias !!!!
See ya, Les.
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:27 pm

I think every one here has a very valid point. A twin cam making
good power (more than 150ish) is not an inexpensive way to make your
ride move but if its at hand it wont break the bank by itself. There
is really nothing inexpensive about rebuilding an Elan other that
most of the previous owners that have left them for dead over the
years. Tatty Elans's show up in the U.S. for $1.5k to $3k at times
The parts alone to referb an Elan chassis to near new condition will
run another $2k to $5k depending on if you need a chassis. If you can
do most of the engine work yourself it does not have to cost a $20k
for a respectable twin cam to put out some serious power. Yes, they
will not be as pleasent to drive as a modern larger displacement
engine but it sure looks at home when you lift the bonnet. In my
opinion, the money/time invested in a engine swap will never be
recovered unless you plan on owning the Elan until your gone. If you
want big power for a street driven Elan, start with a big twin cam.
1700cc is the minimum, 1760cc is better and 2 liter is possible with
a bunch of money.

Gary Anderson

--- In ***@***.***, "Les Mellor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Gidday,
I agree with what you say except : # 1 : A 170 HP road useable
engine is going to cost a lot of money and not be docile.

# 2 : A Zetec producing 170 HP is a very under stressed unit, calm
and tranquil.

# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.
# 4 : A Zetec can be removed and replaced with the old TC returning
the car to original ?

Each to there own, for me the Z is the way to go. Not that I am
bias !!!!

See ya, Les.
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PostPost by: Arno Church » Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:36 pm

# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.

Not quite so easy, Ive replaced the Xflow in my Seven with a Zetec and it is more complicated`than a mere bolt in. The only thing that is bolt on is the bellhousing.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:17 am

--- In ***@***.***, "Les Mellor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Gidday,
I agree with what you say except : # 1 : A 170 HP road useable
engine is going to cost a lot of money and not be docile.


Yes it will not be cheap at about A$12000 if you are starting with a
complete standard engine as a base and you do all the disassembly and
assembly yourself. But it will be a very tractable and useable
engine. "Docile" is a 6.5 comp ratio VW flat four aircooled not
sports car engine in my vocabulary.

# 2 : A Zetec producing 170 HP is a very under stressed unit, calm
and tranquil.


Certainly understressed and to some degree that is why I would not
use it in my lotus ( purely personal opinion here) as I like a engine
that wants to rev and a standard Zetec needs some work to make that
happen properly. Part of the Elan charm and character is it is a
stressed car in every dimension and that is what generates its
performance.

# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.
# 4 : A Zetec can be removed and replaced with the old TC returning
the car to original ?


I agree it is an easily reversible option but when you open the
bonnet (hood) it does not "look" original, again just a personal
opinion. But if Colin was building a plus 2 today he would probably
put a Zetec or its Toyota equivalent in it so who am I to complain.

Each to there own, for me the Z is the way to go. Not that I am
bias !!!!


Agree with you Les and for your plus 2, you go for the Zetec.

Regards
Rohan
In God I trust.... All others please bring data
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PostPost by: lotuselanman » Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:56 am

Giday Rohan,
Guess we are on the same track, I too enjoy a stressed engine but then it is good for the 'Boss' to be able to use it as required and enjoy the car.
My view is also heavily bias towards result for dollars spent. As you say $12,000 for a 170 HP TC, I can build a Zetec with much more than 170HP for 25% of the TC cost including the purchase cost of the Z. I enjoy that too.
Another point to be considered is the satisfaction I derive from such a challenge, for the Z I have made a inlet manifold for 45 Webers, a water rail, engine mounts, turned a flywheel from billet, fitted bigger inlet valves,had cams ground to suit using hydraulic lifters, adapted a belt drive dizzy and a bunch of bananas to match. But having made all those parts I know the Dollars spent on a Z will give a far better result than big bucks spent on a TC. Each to the own, as long as they agree with me !!
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: Rohan Hodges
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 7:16 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Reply to Rohan Hodges



--- In ***@***.***, "Les Mellor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
Gidday,
I agree with what you say except : # 1 : A 170 HP road useable
engine is going to cost a lot of money and not be docile.


Yes it will not be cheap at about A$12000 if you are starting with a
complete standard engine as a base and you do all the disassembly and
assembly yourself. But it will be a very tractable and useable
engine. "Docile" is a 6.5 comp ratio VW flat four aircooled not
sports car engine in my vocabulary.

# 2 : A Zetec producing 170 HP is a very under stressed unit, calm
and tranquil.


Certainly understressed and to some degree that is why I would not
use it in my lotus ( purely personal opinion here) as I like a engine
that wants to rev and a standard Zetec needs some work to make that
happen properly. Part of the Elan charm and character is it is a
stressed car in every dimension and that is what generates its
performance.

# 3 : A Zetec is a bolt in unit basically.
# 4 : A Zetec can be removed and replaced with the old TC returning
the car to original ?


I agree it is an easily reversible option but when you open the
bonnet (hood) it does not "look" original, again just a personal
opinion. But if Colin was building a plus 2 today he would probably
put a Zetec or its Toyota equivalent in it so who am I to complain.

Each to there own, for me the Z is the way to go. Not that I am
bias !!!!


Agree with you Les and for your plus 2, you go for the Zetec.

Regards
Rohan








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PostPost by: Rob_LaMoreaux » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:42 am

Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you could build
a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable 150bhp
that would be very nice in an Elan without the concern of overstressing the
engine or other parts. It would have a nice broad torque band, still look
stock, and be driveable by most anyone. For another couple thousand you
could add fuel injection and it would be as easy to use and efficient as a
Zetec. Of course you wouldn't have the retarded (in degrees) idle that dumps
fuel down the exhaust to keep the catalyst hot that a stock zetec ECU has,
and you wouldn't be able to set the rev limiter over 7000, but that's ok
with me.

My Elan with it's way to long a duration cam and stromberg carbs isn't too
bad to start for a New Years Day drive even in 35 degree weather after
sitting for a month. When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer. If I could add
the extra displacement of the tallblock it would be really really really
nice without loosing the character of the car. But then I'm not interested
in doing all the engineering Les described doing on his Zetec, when I can do
a simple engine rebuild upgrading to a nice cam and get 95% of what I want
in the car without going out of the autocross class I am currently in. If I
went to a Zetec or even the tall block I'd be in a class with either no
competition at an event, or cars I had no hope of beating without also
adding fender flares and major changes that would make the car unhappy on
the street. With the Weber engine I will have a nice street car that will
have a better chance of beating the viper more than once a season.

And my Fiancee loves the Elan, both as a driver and a passenger. I am sure
she will even help work on it like she has done for her dad on his Alfas
(she helped put the tranny in the GTA Jr. twice last spring among other
things). I just had to promise that some day she will have an Alfa Romeo to
keep the Elan company in the garage. Of course the Alfa might have to wait
until we do the addition on the house so that the Elan, Alfa and Corvette
can be in the garage while the daily drivers sit in the driveway. It is
Michigan after all, and I prefer not to have the nice cars sitting under a
few feet of snow.

Just my outlook, for what works for me and my car.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.
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PostPost by: lotuselan2 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:49 am

Rob
I've had my heart set on an Alfa GT (1600 or 1750) for many years. Can you
or your woman compare/contrast the GT Jr. to the Elan? Different but.....
Ken
'69 +2 with BDR
'69 Lotus Elan +2 with Cosworth BDR
'84 Ferrari 400i
'94 Subaru SVX
'04 Audi allroad
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PostPost by: richboyd » Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:41 am

At 07:55 PM 1/10/2005, you wrote:

Rob
I've had my heart set on an Alfa GT (1600 or 1750) for many years. Can you
or your woman compare/contrast the GT Jr. to the Elan? Different but.....
Ken
'69 +2 with BDR


I'm on my seventh Alfa. The closest Alfas to your desire were a Giulia 1600
and a Spyder 1750 (round-tailed, like the Duetto).
The four-door Giulia 1600 was by far the better of the two (I even like the
looks better, but that took some time). The performance of the Giulia will
be comparabe to the GT re: handling, acceleration and braking. I really
liked that car. The GT's body looks great, but is mechanically identical to
the Giulia. Same for the 1750 GTV and the 1750 Spyder; identical mechanicals.

The bigger engine of the 1750 was gained by lengthening the stroke. This
combined with the sluggish Spica fuel injection and a heavier flywheel
stole much of the free-reving charm of the slightly smaller 1600 engine.
Get a carbureted 1600 if you can. More responsive engine.

During all of the Alfa swapping years, I've owned my Elan. Nothing Alfa has
ever made comes close to the Elan for smile-on-your-face fun. Nothing. In
my many side-by-side comparisons, over 30+ years, the Elan always won by a
big margin.

In comparison, Alfas are heavy and clumsy in most all respects. I still
love Alfas and would not categorize them as clumsy without the comparison
to an Elan. I always communicate with my Alfas when I drive them (some
models more than others), just not as closely as with my Elan. I wouldn't
hesitate to buy an Elan over any Alfa if I wanted to have a thoroughly
enjoyable car to drive; one that involves you as the driver. I like them
both, just not equally.

Both Alfas and Elans are fun to work on, as well as drive. Alfa engines are
really nice works of art, as are the transmissions. Old-fashioned steering
boxes. Solid suspensions. Metal bodies that can (do) rust. Shifting can
require patience.

My two pence.

Rich Boyd
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PostPost by: lotuselanman » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:17 am

----- Original Message -----
From: rob_lamoreaux
To: ***@***.*** ; 'Les Mellor' ; 'Rohan Hodges'
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Reply to Rohan Hodges


Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you could build
a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable 150bhp
that would be very nice in an Elan without the concern of overstressing the
engine or other parts. It would have a nice broad torque band, still look
stock, and be driveable by most anyone. For another couple thousand you
could add fuel injection and it would be as easy to use and efficient as a
Zetec. Of course you wouldn't have the retarded (in degrees) idle that dumps
fuel down the exhaust to keep the catalyst hot that a stock zetec ECU has,
and you wouldn't be able to set the rev limiter over 7000, but that's ok
with me.

My Elan with it's way to long a duration cam and stromberg carbs isn't too
bad to start for a New Years Day drive even in 35 degree weather after
sitting for a month. When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer. If I could add
the extra displacement of the tallblock it would be really really really
nice without loosing the character of the car. But then I'm not interested
in doing all the engineering Les described doing on his Zetec, when I cando
a simple engine rebuild upgrading to a nice cam and get 95% of what I want
in the car without going out of the autocross class I am currently in. IfI
went to a Zetec or even the tall block I'd be in a class with either no
competition at an event, or cars I had no hope of beating without also
adding fender flares and major changes that would make the car unhappy on
the street. With the Weber engine I will have a nice street car that will
have a better chance of beating the viper more than once a season.

And my Fiancee loves the Elan, both as a driver and a passenger. I am sure
she will even help work on it like she has done for her dad on his Alfas
(she helped put the tranny in the GTA Jr. twice last spring among other
things). I just had to promise that some day she will have an Alfa Romeo to
keep the Elan company in the garage. Of course the Alfa might have to wait
until we do the addition on the house so that the Elan, Alfa and Corvette
can be in the garage while the daily drivers sit in the driveway. It is
Michigan after all, and I prefer not to have the nice cars sitting under a
few feet of snow.

Just my outlook, for what works for me and my car.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.







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PostPost by: lotuselanman » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:19 am

Gidday Rob,
Each to there own requirements.
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: rob_lamoreaux
To: ***@***.*** ; 'Les Mellor' ; 'Rohan Hodges'
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Reply to Rohan Hodges


Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you could build
a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable 150bhp
that would be very nice in an Elan without the concern of overstressing the
engine or other parts. It would have a nice broad torque band, still look
stock, and be driveable by most anyone. For another couple thousand you
could add fuel injection and it would be as easy to use and efficient as a
Zetec. Of course you wouldn't have the retarded (in degrees) idle that dumps
fuel down the exhaust to keep the catalyst hot that a stock zetec ECU has,
and you wouldn't be able to set the rev limiter over 7000, but that's ok
with me.

My Elan with it's way to long a duration cam and stromberg carbs isn't too
bad to start for a New Years Day drive even in 35 degree weather after
sitting for a month. When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer. If I could add
the extra displacement of the tallblock it would be really really really
nice without loosing the character of the car. But then I'm not interested
in doing all the engineering Les described doing on his Zetec, when I cando
a simple engine rebuild upgrading to a nice cam and get 95% of what I want
in the car without going out of the autocross class I am currently in. IfI
went to a Zetec or even the tall block I'd be in a class with either no
competition at an event, or cars I had no hope of beating without also
adding fender flares and major changes that would make the car unhappy on
the street. With the Weber engine I will have a nice street car that will
have a better chance of beating the viper more than once a season.

And my Fiancee loves the Elan, both as a driver and a passenger. I am sure
she will even help work on it like she has done for her dad on his Alfas
(she helped put the tranny in the GTA Jr. twice last spring among other
things). I just had to promise that some day she will have an Alfa Romeo to
keep the Elan company in the garage. Of course the Alfa might have to wait
until we do the addition on the house so that the Elan, Alfa and Corvette
can be in the garage while the daily drivers sit in the driveway. It is
Michigan after all, and I prefer not to have the nice cars sitting under a
few feet of snow.

Just my outlook, for what works for me and my car.

Rob LaMoreaux
Ann Arbor, MI USA
(734)-971-5583
Cell (734)-604-9280
Email: ***@***.***
Too many Hobbies.... Too Little Time
1969 Lotus Elan....It's not a restoration, it's a never-ending adventure.







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PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:56 am

--- In ***@***.***, "rob_lamoreaux"
<[email protected]> wrote:
Seems to me that for a lot less than the Au$12000 mentioned you
could build

a nice 1700 twincam that would deliver a very streetable, reliable
150bhp




Rob
A 150 hp type engine is certainly cheaper as you can stay with a
relatively standard ford crank and rods and pistons. Saves about
A$4000 compared to a steel bottom end capable of more than 7000 rpm
reliably.

You still need to spend a fair bit of money on a top end to truely
get the 150 hp especially out of a 1600 engine if you want to stay in
your autocross class.

When I build up the weber engine in the garage it will
have a .380"-.410" 285 degree cam which will be much nicer.


If your going to spend the money on a new cam and valve train to go
to .410 lift and the porting to make it worthwhile then the cost to
go to about .45 lift is really the same and you will gain in both
torque and power. Above .45 it starts to get really hard to do as all
the tolerances and degrees of freedom close up on you and each build
is a real hand crafted exercise.


regards
Rohan
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PostPost by: billyt » Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:12 pm

--- In ***@***.***, "lotus" <[email protected]> wrote:
Rob
I've had my heart set on an Alfa GT (1600 or 1750) for many years.
Can you

or your woman compare/contrast the GT Jr. to the Elan? Different
but.....

Ken
'69 +2 with BDR



i have a s2 elan and a 105 series gtv 2000 ,the alfa engine is a

lovely torquey engine and the guigaro designed body is nice but the
handling is s>>>>>>e& it rusts like there is no tomorrow its asmall
classic italian but it aint no LOTUS.[Non-text portions of this
message have been removed]
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PostPost by: s2lola » Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:41 pm

All,

Had a lovely early 80's Spider. Wonderful car, completely perfectly
maintained when I had bought it - probably the nicest older car I'd ever
owned, in terms of condition.

But:

"Old-fashioned steering boxes" - you got that right. Like parallel parking
a bulldozer

"Solid suspensions." - Yep. I especially liked the fabric travel limit
strap on the rear

"Shifting can require patience." - Only because the second gear syncrho was
made of some alloy that had the wear characteristics of a bar of soap.

"Heavy" - oh yeah. Unbelievably so.

I miss that car, even still.

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt


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PostPost by: roadterror » Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:13 pm

I bought a 2L 74 GTV to use as a 'runabout' car while my +2 is being rebuilt... and I agree with all you've described! An attractive car, the GTV but miss driving the +2...

Any finned alloy sumps available for the TC engine? Alfa also noticably quieter running than the +2....

From: Bill Tebbutt <***@***.***>
Date: Tue 11/01/2005 10:41 PM GMT+08:00
To: "'***@***.***'" <***@***.***>
Subject: RE: [LotusElan.net] Reply to Rohan Hodges


All,

Had a lovely early 80's Spider. Wonderful car, completely perfectly
maintained when I had bought it - probably the nicest older car I'd ever
owned, in terms of condition.

But:

"Old-fashioned steering boxes" - you got that right. Like parallel parking
a bulldozer

"Solid suspensions." - Yep. I especially liked the fabric travel limit
strap on the rear

"Shifting can require patience." - Only because the second gear syncrho was
made of some alloy that had the wear characteristics of a bar of soap.

"Heavy" - oh yeah. Unbelievably so.

I miss that car, even still.

Cheers,
Bill Tebbutt


***********************************************************************************
Financiere Banque Nationale et NBCN n'assument aucune responsabilite quant a la confidentialite et l'integrite du present courriel en raison des risques d'interception inherents a l'Internet. Pour cette raison, toute opinion exprimee au terme des presentes ne reflete pas necessairement celle de Financiere Banque Nationale et de NBCN.
***********************************************************************************
Due to the security risks involved in sending information over the Internet, National Bank Financial and NBCN can not be held
responsible for ensuring the confidentiality and integrity of the present e-mail. For this reason, the opinions expressed herein do not
necessarily reflect those of National Bank Financial and NBCN.
***********************************************************************************







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PostPost by: john.p.clegg » Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:25 pm

Brian
With the sump so low and exposed(not to mention used for jacking purposes) do you really want an alloy one?

John

***@***.***e:


Any finned alloy sumps available for the TC engine? Alfa also noticably quieter running than the +2....
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