Zetec
12 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
- waschu2
- First Gear
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Hi Wayne
I believe Spyder are currently developing a chassis for a Zetec Elan as they
mentioned about it at a talk they did for our local Lotus Club.
Clive
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I believe Spyder are currently developing a chassis for a Zetec Elan as they
mentioned about it at a talk they did for our local Lotus Club.
Clive
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- cliveyboy
- Fourth Gear
- Posts: 853
- Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Have you contacted Spyder cars? This is a standard conversion for them, these days (both baby Elan and Plus 2).
As far as I know, you can't do it with a standard pressed steel chassis, though - you will need one of Spyder's spaceframe jobs.
Martin Stuart
----- Original Message -----
From: WAS
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
As far as I know, you can't do it with a standard pressed steel chassis, though - you will need one of Spyder's spaceframe jobs.
Martin Stuart
----- Original Message -----
From: WAS
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
- Martin_StuartUK
- Third Gear
- Posts: 396
- Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Gidday Wayne, Bingo, I'm doing the Zetec swap. Same reason, more power, better econemy, cheaper and is a throw away item.
I assume you are in the USA, I'm in Australia.
Have a ' 70 +2s and a Lotus Cortina. I am part way through building a 1.8 Zon 45mm Webers, larger inlet valves, cams and bunch of bananas. This is anextra engine for the LC and another car we will race, the LC has 158HP TCas the original engine.
For the Elan I will use the 40's from its TC engine and more basic tune to around the 150 HP mark. I have photos of the Z in the Elan chassis during the Elan rebuild if you are interested.
Spyder did an excellent rebuild on there chassis with a Z but the engine finished up further foreward than the original.
IfI can help please drop me a lone.
See ya, Les
PS the TC engine is for sale for $4000-00 Australian.
----- Original Message -----
From: WAS
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:02 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
I assume you are in the USA, I'm in Australia.
Have a ' 70 +2s and a Lotus Cortina. I am part way through building a 1.8 Zon 45mm Webers, larger inlet valves, cams and bunch of bananas. This is anextra engine for the LC and another car we will race, the LC has 158HP TCas the original engine.
For the Elan I will use the 40's from its TC engine and more basic tune to around the 150 HP mark. I have photos of the Z in the Elan chassis during the Elan rebuild if you are interested.
Spyder did an excellent rebuild on there chassis with a Z but the engine finished up further foreward than the original.
IfI can help please drop me a lone.
See ya, Les
PS the TC engine is for sale for $4000-00 Australian.
----- Original Message -----
From: WAS
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:02 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
- lotuselanman
- Second Gear
- Posts: 155
- Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Its not the Zetec that gives the problem, but the transmission. I recentlyevaluated a Zetec+T9 (from an XR4ti), and found that the rear of the transmission would not fit into the center section of the standard stamped steelframe. Engine height would probably be a problem, If I were going forwardwith this I would use a dry sump. HTH
Stan
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Stuart
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Have you contacted Spyder cars? This is a standard conversion for them, these days (both baby Elan and Plus 2).
As far as I know, you can't do it with a standard pressed steel chassis, though - you will need one of Spyder's spaceframe jobs.
Martin Stuart
----- Original Message -----
From: WAS
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
Stan
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Stuart
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Have you contacted Spyder cars? This is a standard conversion for them, these days (both baby Elan and Plus 2).
As far as I know, you can't do it with a standard pressed steel chassis, though - you will need one of Spyder's spaceframe jobs.
Martin Stuart
----- Original Message -----
From: WAS
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Zetec
Hi,
Has anyone put a Zetec engine in a standard Elan? I am doing a body off
restoration on my 71 S4 FHC and wonder if this is the time to upgrade
to a Zetec and a five speed. My T/C is tired and even with its Weber
head the Zetec would be more power and less expensive to do. The shop
that supplies the type nine five speed transmission to birkin USA is
local and would help in that area. I would leave the rear end alone
except for my CV joint axles as the 3.77 gears would be ideal. I am
hoping to benefit from someone else that has tried this already. I have
all the information for the Spyder conversion to the Plus Two, but I
am looking for help with a standard Elan install.
Wayne
- saarhus
- Third Gear
- Posts: 468
- Joined: 12 Oct 2003
I am considering doing this in Aaron's old plus two (and putting the twink
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
- pinsx3
- Second Gear
- Posts: 131
- Joined: 16 Sep 2003
But the engine has to fit behind the front cross-member/ vac. reservoir, and the existing twink hasn't any room to spare.
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
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in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
**********************************************************************
- Elan45
- Coveted Fifth Gear
- Posts: 2518
- Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Peter,
I am leaning strongly towards the Duratec. In fact, I traded my Zetec evaluator for a Duratec 2.0l. Why?
The Duratec is all alu, and is about 50 lb. lighter than the Zetec.
The Duratec is designed for Ford and Mazda by Coswoth, and closely follows the design of their pure racing engines, DFV, etc.
The bottom end is Very robust with a deep bridal for the mains, and the sump heavily braced.
Chain driven cams, more compact and wear/breakage not a factor.
Engine is 19" from front edge of crank pulley to rear face, within half an inch of the TC. It fits!
Sump is convertible to dry sump, retaining the stiffening value of the original.
Exhaust and Intake are reversed, putting the exhaust on the right. Cooler feet for LHD versions.
The biggest problem is dealing with the unique starter mount.
This engine is available on the following:
Ford Ranger as a 2.3l
Ford Focus (PZEV) on SVT equivalents
Mazda 6 as a counterbalanced (removable) 2.3l
Mazda 3 as a 2.0 liter
More to follow. This is Ford's new World Engine. There will be millions of them out there.
Available in three sizes: 1.8, 2.0 (D-Mod size?), and 2.3l
An excellent source and knowledge is Gerry at
Dedonis, Gerry and Melodie
E-mail Address(es):
***@***.***
Business Information:
Title: Associate
Department: Racing
Company: Kansas Racing Products
Address:
1205 Manor Drive
Chapman KS 67431
USA
Phone: 785-922-6644
Web Page: http://www.kansasracingproducts.com
Notes:
Source for 2.0l Duratec engines
No personal or business relationship, just a happy customer
Stan A (mulling a minor upgrade)
I am considering doing this in Aaron's old plus two (and putting the twink
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
I am leaning strongly towards the Duratec. In fact, I traded my Zetec evaluator for a Duratec 2.0l. Why?
The Duratec is all alu, and is about 50 lb. lighter than the Zetec.
The Duratec is designed for Ford and Mazda by Coswoth, and closely follows the design of their pure racing engines, DFV, etc.
The bottom end is Very robust with a deep bridal for the mains, and the sump heavily braced.
Chain driven cams, more compact and wear/breakage not a factor.
Engine is 19" from front edge of crank pulley to rear face, within half an inch of the TC. It fits!
Sump is convertible to dry sump, retaining the stiffening value of the original.
Exhaust and Intake are reversed, putting the exhaust on the right. Cooler feet for LHD versions.
The biggest problem is dealing with the unique starter mount.
This engine is available on the following:
Ford Ranger as a 2.3l
Ford Focus (PZEV) on SVT equivalents
Mazda 6 as a counterbalanced (removable) 2.3l
Mazda 3 as a 2.0 liter
More to follow. This is Ford's new World Engine. There will be millions of them out there.
Available in three sizes: 1.8, 2.0 (D-Mod size?), and 2.3l
An excellent source and knowledge is Gerry at
Dedonis, Gerry and Melodie
E-mail Address(es):
***@***.***
Business Information:
Title: Associate
Department: Racing
Company: Kansas Racing Products
Address:
1205 Manor Drive
Chapman KS 67431
USA
Phone: 785-922-6644
Web Page: http://www.kansasracingproducts.com
Notes:
Source for 2.0l Duratec engines
No personal or business relationship, just a happy customer
Stan A (mulling a minor upgrade)
I am considering doing this in Aaron's old plus two (and putting the twink
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
- saarhus
- Third Gear
- Posts: 468
- Joined: 12 Oct 2003
The only (minor) problem is that for the first time since the late 50's
early 60's., Ford changed the bellhousing bolt pattern on the block on their
"european" 4 cyl engines , so the normal range of previously available
gearboxes will not be a straight forward fit. The kit car industry in UK are
however already onto it and making suitable ali bellhousings
Arno
Peter,
I am leaning strongly towards the Duratec. In fact, I traded my Zetec
evaluator for a Duratec 2.0l. Why?
The Duratec is all alu, and is about 50 lb. lighter than the Zetec.
The Duratec is designed for Ford and Mazda by Coswoth, and closely follows
the design of their pure racing engines, DFV, etc.
The bottom end is Very robust with a deep bridal for the mains, and the
sump heavily braced.
Chain driven cams, more compact and wear/breakage not a factor.
Engine is 19" from front edge of crank pulley to rear face, within half an
inch of the TC. It fits!
Sump is convertible to dry sump, retaining the stiffening value of the
original.
Exhaust and Intake are reversed, putting the exhaust on the right. Cooler
feet for LHD versions.
The biggest problem is dealing with the unique starter mount.
This engine is available on the following:
Ford Ranger as a 2.3l
Ford Focus (PZEV) on SVT equivalents
Mazda 6 as a counterbalanced (removable) 2.3l
Mazda 3 as a 2.0 liter
More to follow. This is Ford's new World Engine. There will be millions
of them out there.
Available in three sizes: 1.8, 2.0 (D-Mod size?), and 2.3l
An excellent source and knowledge is Gerry at
Dedonis, Gerry and Melodie
E-mail Address(es):
***@***.***
Business Information:
Title: Associate
Department: Racing
Company: Kansas Racing Products
Address:
1205 Manor Drive
Chapman KS 67431
USA
Phone: 785-922-6644
Web Page: http://www.kansasracingproducts.com
Notes:
Source for 2.0l Duratec engines
No personal or business relationship, just a happy customer
Stan A (mulling a minor upgrade)
I am considering doing this in Aaron's old plus two (and putting the
twink
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for
this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know
what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would
offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
***@***.***
early 60's., Ford changed the bellhousing bolt pattern on the block on their
"european" 4 cyl engines , so the normal range of previously available
gearboxes will not be a straight forward fit. The kit car industry in UK are
however already onto it and making suitable ali bellhousings
Arno
Peter,
I am leaning strongly towards the Duratec. In fact, I traded my Zetec
evaluator for a Duratec 2.0l. Why?
The Duratec is all alu, and is about 50 lb. lighter than the Zetec.
The Duratec is designed for Ford and Mazda by Coswoth, and closely follows
the design of their pure racing engines, DFV, etc.
The bottom end is Very robust with a deep bridal for the mains, and the
sump heavily braced.
Chain driven cams, more compact and wear/breakage not a factor.
Engine is 19" from front edge of crank pulley to rear face, within half an
inch of the TC. It fits!
Sump is convertible to dry sump, retaining the stiffening value of the
original.
Exhaust and Intake are reversed, putting the exhaust on the right. Cooler
feet for LHD versions.
The biggest problem is dealing with the unique starter mount.
This engine is available on the following:
Ford Ranger as a 2.3l
Ford Focus (PZEV) on SVT equivalents
Mazda 6 as a counterbalanced (removable) 2.3l
Mazda 3 as a 2.0 liter
More to follow. This is Ford's new World Engine. There will be millions
of them out there.
Available in three sizes: 1.8, 2.0 (D-Mod size?), and 2.3l
An excellent source and knowledge is Gerry at
Dedonis, Gerry and Melodie
E-mail Address(es):
***@***.***
Business Information:
Title: Associate
Department: Racing
Company: Kansas Racing Products
Address:
1205 Manor Drive
Chapman KS 67431
USA
Phone: 785-922-6644
Web Page: http://www.kansasracingproducts.com
Notes:
Source for 2.0l Duratec engines
No personal or business relationship, just a happy customer
Stan A (mulling a minor upgrade)
I am considering doing this in Aaron's old plus two (and putting the
twink
in a cortina). Does anyone know a source of knowledge in the US for
this
endeavor? I am thinking fuel injected and a 5 speed, but I don't know
what
tranny.
I am also thinking duratech rather than zetec as the duratech -- I have
heard -- are lighter and all alu. Is this true? Maybe that would
offset
any forward movement of the engine due to tranny width.
P
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
***@***.***
- Arno Church
- Fourth Gear
- Posts: 649
- Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Peter -
Does this mean the car will finally get the Spyder Chassis I always
dreamed of?
Aaron
formerly '68 +2
currently '79 ESPRIT S2
St. Paul, MN USA
--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:
Does this mean the car will finally get the Spyder Chassis I always
dreamed of?
Aaron
formerly '68 +2
currently '79 ESPRIT S2
St. Paul, MN USA
--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:
- elanplustwo
- First Gear
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Gidday Peter
Lotuselanman here in Australia, call me Les for short.
Yes the Duratec is all Alloy, chain drive cams and is a Mazda designed unit. As for a g'box who knows. I suggest you liase with Spyder in the UK, theyare switched on. Maybe a Mazda group can suggest a box.
Good idead for the Twink into a Cortina. I have a MK2 LC which I use in club racing, 158 HP.
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:08 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Zetec vs. duratec
Peter -
Does this mean the car will finally get the Spyder Chassis I always
dreamed of?
Aaron
formerly '68 +2
currently '79 ESPRIT S2
St. Paul, MN USA
--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:
Lotuselanman here in Australia, call me Les for short.
Yes the Duratec is all Alloy, chain drive cams and is a Mazda designed unit. As for a g'box who knows. I suggest you liase with Spyder in the UK, theyare switched on. Maybe a Mazda group can suggest a box.
Good idead for the Twink into a Cortina. I have a MK2 LC which I use in club racing, 158 HP.
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:08 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Zetec vs. duratec
Peter -
Does this mean the car will finally get the Spyder Chassis I always
dreamed of?
Aaron
formerly '68 +2
currently '79 ESPRIT S2
St. Paul, MN USA
--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:
- lotuselanman
- Second Gear
- Posts: 155
- Joined: 20 Jul 2004
www.fordracing.com will sell you a new 2.3ltr duratec c/w injection for
$2295! OK it is out of a Ranger, but still develops 135HP and 153Ft/lbs of
torque.
I think if I was looking at a new engine, I would look seriously at
importing one.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Mellor [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 01 August 2004 21:51
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Re: Zetec vs. duratec
Gidday Peter
Lotuselanman here in Australia, call me Les for short.
Yes the Duratec is all Alloy, chain drive cams and is a Mazda designed unit.
As for a g'box who knows. I suggest you liase with Spyder in the UK, they
are switched on. Maybe a Mazda group can suggest a box.
Good idead for the Twink into a Cortina. I have a MK2 LC which I use in club
racing, 158 HP.
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:08 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Zetec vs. duratec
Peter -
Does this mean the car will finally get the Spyder Chassis I always
dreamed of?
Aaron
formerly '68 +2
currently '79 ESPRIT S2
St. Paul, MN USA
--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:
$2295! OK it is out of a Ranger, but still develops 135HP and 153Ft/lbs of
torque.
I think if I was looking at a new engine, I would look seriously at
importing one.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Mellor [mailto:***@***.***
Sent: 01 August 2004 21:51
To: ***@***.***
Subject: Re: [LotusElan.net] Re: Zetec vs. duratec
Gidday Peter
Lotuselanman here in Australia, call me Les for short.
Yes the Duratec is all Alloy, chain drive cams and is a Mazda designed unit.
As for a g'box who knows. I suggest you liase with Spyder in the UK, they
are switched on. Maybe a Mazda group can suggest a box.
Good idead for the Twink into a Cortina. I have a MK2 LC which I use in club
racing, 158 HP.
See ya, Les
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@***.***
To: ***@***.***
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:08 AM
Subject: [LotusElan.net] Re: Zetec vs. duratec
Peter -
Does this mean the car will finally get the Spyder Chassis I always
dreamed of?
Aaron
formerly '68 +2
currently '79 ESPRIT S2
St. Paul, MN USA
--- In ***@***.***, Peter Steilberg <psteilberg@m...>
wrote:
- davidallen
- Third Gear
- Posts: 292
- Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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