Lotus Elan

knock on to bolt on conversion

PostPost by: pauljones » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:17 pm

has anyone got any info regarding changing the plus 2 knock-on hubs to bolt-on type.the fronts appear to be an easy swap,just a case of swaping the relevent triumph hub over,the rears are the main cause for concern so any info would be useful.

the second part would then be a set of wheels to suit the new hub set up,any ideas? i was thinking larger wheels with lower profile tyres.poss 15inch so i can install bigger brakes, any advice from the racers.?
Kick the tyres and light them fires...!!!!!!!
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:28 pm

Hi Paul,

I think this question was asked quite recently but I'm afraid I didn't make a note of it.
Perhaps the easier route would be to consider the 14" knock on wheels that are presently available?
With a 6" x 14" wheel you would have a choice of rubber & aspect ratio.
It would also be worth asking Minilite if they could do their knock on in 15" or 16"; shouldn't be too difficult for them.
Overall gearing & speedo accuracy will need to be thought about once a decision has been made.
Lots of info on here about that.

Cheers
John
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PostPost by: msd1107 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:28 pm

These may some of the threads John remembers

elan-f14/tyres-for-elan-t17848-60.html
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14926&view=previous
viewtopic.php?t=16303&view=next
elan-f14/tyre-advice-wanted-t17603-15.html

for speedometer/odometer calibration issues
elan-f15/updated-spreadsheets-t18445.html

For 15" wheels, a 15X6 or maybe 15X 5 1/2 wheel with 185/55X15 tyre might be suitable. Depending on your wheel arches, you might be able to use 195/55X15. Both of these are close in rolling diameter to the standard 165X13 tyres.

David
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PostPost by: gerrym » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:52 pm

Paul, if your aim is tyre, wheel, hub & brake changes, speak to Spyder Engineering. You may find that they already have most of this covered by the components (mostly Ford based) used on the Zetec conversions and quite of bit of development behind their designs. Ie, a lot of hidden issues such as bearing loads, brake component compatibility such as master cylinder selections, have already been worked through.

Regards

Gerry
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PostPost by: 1964 S1 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:58 am

I'm a racer, unfortunately not with my Lotuses. I don't enjoy playing devil's advocate but in this case I will.
I've got an S1 and a '69 +2. Why, is my question, would you want to improve the brakes on a +2? The +2 out handles the little Elan when it comes to flying over bumpy roads around corners and unless you're simply driving too fast, the brakes seem more than adequate. You're talking about messing with Colin Chapman's suspension geometry and I'll bet two pints you get it wrong. What are you expecting to improve? Stopping distance in a straight line?
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PostPost by: msd1107 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:34 am

Eric,

You are correct, when you look at the car from the aspect of the technology from 1967.

Now, tires have roughly 50% greater grip, average speeds are higher, and the stresses on brakes are much greater.

So it is entirely appropriate to consider advances to the technology of the '60s to cope with the driving requirements of the 21st century.

The Spyder solution may not be appropriate for everybody. In particular, they recommended to me that their suspension upgrades would not be appropriate for my situation.

Remember, the Spyder upgrades to the wheels, uprights, and brakes are substantially heavier than the stock components. Going the Spyder route will require comprehensive retuning of the spring/damper rates, and possibly more.

If I read Paul's query properly, he wants to upgrade to 15' wheels and tires, larger brakes, without suffering weight and handling penalties.

He should be able to accomplish this. However, as you point out, there are a lot of interconnected issues. So integrating 15" wheels, the appropriate tires, larger brakes, calipers, etc may be challenging.

In a certain respect, using 13X6 wheels with Michelin 165X13 XAS tires would get you close to optimum.

But everbody has to do things according to their abilities and finances.

David
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PostPost by: pauljones » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:54 am

thanks guys for some quick replies,
lets get this straight,the main priority is for bolt on wheels so i dont have to worry about wheels falling of again.especialy as ill have my kids in the car,yes lucky them.

the second part would then be to source new wheels,to suit the hubs.so larger wheels,lower profile tyres to keep the rolling diameter as close as possible would give me what I believe a better car on the faster parts of our raods,or even the odd lap of good wood.but curcuits are not the aim,just an after thought.

as far as better brakes go,im thinking willwood type calipers as an upgrade to the origonals as the cost for refurbing the old is almost the same price as the new.but these are lighter,stronger and more modern.im not wanting 330mm disks and 6pots.!!

as has been menioned,cost is the big issue,and the rear conversion is causing a few head aches as i cant find info on the conversion,thanks to paddy for the advice so far.

so any leads would be great,i cant be the only one who's had a wheel come off and wants bolt on's,can i?
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PostPost by: GrUmPyBoDgEr » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:26 am

Hi Paul,

in your initial posting you did not mention your knock on phobia so I understand that my suggestions didn't fit the bill.
Keep me in mind for the future; I have a complete set of Wilwood 4 pot front brakes (Calipers, Disks, Pads & adaptors) in original packaging that are excess to requirements, at much less than the present advertised price.
They will fit in 13" wheels.
With regards to the rear hub problem I expect a specialist like TTR could provide a bolt on version to suit the Elan drive shafts.

Cheers
John
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PostPost by: garyeanderson » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:20 am

3 late rear axles shafts
Image
The axles with (left to right) type 36 knock on hub, type 26 bolt on hub and type 50 knock on hub.
Image

The type 50 (plus2) hub is 7/8 inch wider (face to face) than the (type 26 elan) bolt on hub.
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PostPost by: ncm » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:41 am

I bought a +2 chassis/suspension a while back from a guy converting his car to a Spyder Zetec set-up. This chassis has bolt on hubs at the rear of similar dimensions and appearance to those shown in Gary's post above,except the hub section is parallel.The car was on split rim compomotive wheels...now I understand why! :roll:
Brian.
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PostPost by: ncm » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:45 pm

Hi Paul, I see from your recent question that you posted in the for sale section that you are still looking for rear bolt on hubs. If you are interested in the pair of hubs shown below I will pm with details. Please note that they are not early elan cast items but appear to be machined steel.
Cheers, Brian.
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PostPost by: pauljones » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:23 pm

9 years latter, and yes still looking. Fronts and rears wanted.
Kick the tyres and light them fires...!!!!!!!
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PostPost by: tedtaylor » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:30 pm

K/O phobia? I think it's just that....a phobia that is not based on real statistics.
I just drove over 1,000 miles last week to LOG38 with my Elan Sprint and K/O's. I checked them before I left (they were tight) and upon return (still tight).
if my limited knowledge is correct, the sides tighten opposite, but consistent with forward=tightening and rearward=loosening. The idea here being upon braking, the force goes to assist tightening as the default, so the only possible opposite action to loosen the spinners is extremely hard acceleration. SInce I have rubber donuts (no splined CV joint direct drive), there is some alleviated power to the hubs, thus not contributing to loosening hubs.
All this to say, I have absolutely NO fears of wheels falling off on a well maintained car.
Should anyone feel otherwise? is that fear justified???
TED
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PostPost by: pauljones » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:23 am

Mr Ted,
My factless phobia as you would care to call it comes from having my rear wheel come off while driving in the Welsh valleys, inparticular the Brecon beacons.
Thankfully only the nose of the car and one front wheel went over a ridge. A dramatic view if your unaware of the roads. Thankfully a few friends on the same course as me were with me and helped pull the car back onto the road where she was reinstated with said rear wheel. It had wedged up into the arch.
The 3 eared spinner was secured and all others checked. Tight as a bankers wallet.
Not the best introduction into lotus ownership and the problem persisted. Read as wheel came off several times after. After being lied too and ripped off by a famous lotus guru in the south, and asking a few questions here, ive swapped over to federal spinner nuts. And im happy to say no re occourance and wheels have stayed secure. All hubs are on correct way as they were.

But moving onwards, i want hubs with bolt on wheels because of the initial issues.
I dont really want to change the suspension to spyder style because i love how she handles, i would then be able to source different wheels and use more modern rubber.

So i find your comment EXTREMELY insulting.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 11:16 am

In my experience the issue with KO wheels tends to be if they are not mounted hard up against the hub flange and jam on the drive pegs. The centre nut can be tightened up fully but if the wheel has jammed then a gap exists between the flange and wheel.. When driving the wheel eventually shifts and the KO nut becomes loose and the wheel potentially comes off. The gap needs only be a fraction of a mm to cause the problem and is hard to detect when mounting the wheel.

If the wheel mounts properly and does not jam on the studs ( alloy wheels appear more likely to jam) and the KO nut is correctly tightened then they do not come loose in my experience and you are more likely to suffer from a broken stub axle or failed trunnion.

I know of no one making the correct offset rear bolt on hubs for a Plus 2 so you will probably need to get them especially made, TTR may be able to help as they make steel replacement rear bolt on hubs for the Elan. The fronts are readily available as they are standard Triumph items.

Lets keep the discussion sensible and not take offense at comments made with good intention. I have lost more wheels on my Lotus while racing than most due to a range of failures and I am paranoid about the whole suspension assembly failing in multiple ways :(

cheers
Rohan
Last edited by rgh0 on Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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