Lotus Elan

Racing in europe post brexit

PostPost by: Frogelan » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:16 am

Other options ?

Why not drive to events...on the road?

Reading Seamus' point about racing pre-1993, reminded me that when I first raced in 1994-1995 I drove my 1963 MGB to each rally or race event on the road. I was certainly not alone although as I grew older and more responsible I did end up buying a trailer when one came up.

This was indeed an interesting discipline. Dunlop 204 M tyres do require care on the road! Apart from one incident with the back axle (the surface finish came off the CW & P) on the journey home, this was a great deal of fun.

In Denmark there is indeed a historic "Team No Trailers" (TNT) and more locally to me here in France, most competitors for historic rallies and hybrid events such as the Tour Auto, do not use trailers, although for the latter, the megabuck front runners usually have money no object back up teams.

Perhaps the answers are in front of us:

- For historic racing are trailers, motor homes and huge trucks really necessary and worth all of the extra expense ? [Obviously not applicable to sports prototypes and single seaters]

- Some events in the UK are for road going cars only (I have not been to any of these, but I have heard of them).

- If for particular events, competitors had to arrive and depart (hopefully) without trailers, would some racers be more prudent ?

- Will owners with UK registered cars be required to show MoT certificates for driving old cars on the road in Europe as this is indeed a requirement for EU classic car owners. If in doubt and to avoid insurance gremlins, this might be very wise.

I have done my bit for this morning to stir you all up :roll: :D
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PostPost by: HCA » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:14 am

Lots of people do drive to events, but you cannot expect someone to drive their full race prepared [enter here any marque] car that may not even idle below 3000RPM with a set of slics strapped on the roof!

This carnet issue applies to EU as well. Many EU drivers love to visit the UK especially for events on iconic circuits. They too will suffer, maybe along with tourism as well.

An earlier poster, unnecessarily defending brexit and blaming the carnet on the EU, asked for examples where the UK so called government making problems post brexit. The one that makes me laugh is by printing the wrong postcode on papers for an overflow truck park in Kent, a poor village is deluded with 40 tonners! Google 'Mersham truck problems'.. :D
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PostPost by: Andy8421 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:06 pm

Frogelan wrote:Other options ?

Why not drive to events...on the road?



HSCC Historic roadsports championship is for road legal cars, with additional championship points for those who drive their car to the circuit.

https://hscc.org.uk/championships/hscc-historic-road-sports/

I have an S3 built to roadsports spec, which I raced a few years ago. I would not want to drive it on the road for any distance. No usable power below 2500rpm, a clutch that is either on or off, brakes that don't really work cold and an exhaust that frightens passers by.

It needed an MOT to be eligible for the championship, and I would drive it to the MOT centre and back. Dropping the clutch at 3500rpm at the traffic lights in the town centre to stop the engine bogging down and leaving a trail of rubber made me look like a hooligan.

The roadsport spec allows a reasonable amount of modification, and to be competitive you need to push the envelope as far as you can, but even so it is no where near 'full race'. I can only image what it would be like to try to drive a fully prepared car on the road.
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PostPost by: 661 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:34 pm

Some of the championships state 'road legal cars' and then insist on using Dunlop racing tyres, illegal for road use.

Back to the thread. I had hoped to race at Spa, in one context or another, sadly not at that extra expense.Even track days are out if you don't drive the respective vehicle there.
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PostPost by: HCA » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:39 am

Really sorry that you are hit by this Graeme. I can imagine how you feel. I have never 'raced' at Spa, but have been around in a car at brisk speed. All I can say is that Eau Rouge is everything it is cracked up to be, and taking it at full speed must be quite exhilarating!

Listen, all might not be lost. On another forum they are talking about the chambers of commerce accepting security in the way of a bank guarantee that might be acceptable to them. You could get such security using your house, or even your personal bank status. It might be worth checking out. Try:

https://www.chamber-international.com/e ... ta-carnet/
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PostPost by: Seamus » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:50 pm

I'm not convinced that Motorsport UK have got it right for individual competitors, their guidance I believe is geared towards businesses; professional race teams and commercial transporters etc.

The club that I'm racing with is reserving judgement, see extract from email last week to members below:

"The CSCC anticipated that a Carnet would be needed in some circumstances when racing overseas, but more detail was and still is needed. Questions remain regarding Elite events/amateur drivers/road legal cars with V5s/group carnet's, car valuations, etc. We have been discussing this with our friends in Belgium as recently as last Friday. We are trying to find a workable and affordable solution, so that as many of you can join us at Spa this year as possible.

Over the coming months we will give you clear advice on what you need to do. The CSCC as always offers its members a full refund up until a certain date, therefore, when entries open, you can stake your place and pay with assurance; you can always change your mind later."

Does anyone know what the French authorities are saying?
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PostPost by: Seamus » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:57 pm

Latest information from the CSCC for racing in the EU.

"Where there is still uncertainty is what is required for the race car being towed, we will come back to you with more information over the coming months. At the time of writing it appears that if a race car being towed has a V5, road insurance and a green card then a Carnet is not required (although any spares and tools valued individually above £150 do). We would like to thank those of you who have contacted us with advice and expertise, particularly Chris Tilly, who is now assisting MSUK directly. "
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PostPost by: Frogelan » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm

Seamus, that is quite a result if it is confirmed.

I have not looked into this with the authorities but the CSCC thinking seems very logical.

I think that this will take a few months to be resolved as the Covid business is also a major headache. There is talk of Covid cards etc but until everyone is jabbed twice and 15 days have gone past...no one is safe.

September seems to be the earliest date if we are to be brutally honest as the manufacturers of vaccines are not yet upto speed.
Last edited by Frogelan on Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPost by: HCA » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:37 pm

Seamus wrote:
Does anyone know what the French authorities are saying?


This is NOT a 'French' thing - this is an international reguirement. It is also not confined to motorsport, it applies to the likes of horse eventing and dog showing - anything where tempory importation of an item that has a monetary value.

The French are equally bemused as it is a big day for many to travel to the UK and race that might well be denied to them now..

I hope for the sake of enthusiasts that what your club is saying might be true, but I am not holding my breath...
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PostPost by: Seamus » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:55 pm

I am well aware that this isn't a "French thing" but France has the most used points of entry when driving into the EU from the UK.

I was just attempting to get an insight on what the French authorities are saying about towing a race car into the UK.
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PostPost by: HCA » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:10 pm

The French are not saying anything that contravenes or overrules the World Customs Organisation who own the ATA carnet system.

Currently, the WCO say that a trailed car and associated equipment must have an ATA carnet that in turn dictates a 40% deposit be put in escrow. Believe me, there are many in Europe who are as unhappy as you are. Unless anyone can get to the WCO and get a leave on the deposit, I think the best course of action would be to see if locally you can put up the depoist in the form of security.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:04 am

So if the car is road registered and can be taken off the trailer and driving across the 20 metres of border crossing and then put back on the trailer then a ATA Carnet and related cost and paper work is not required ? :D

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PostPost by: Frogelan » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:45 am

@Rohan

Inevitably the trailer, spare and tools would need a carnet...but your idea is good. Perhaps there is good money to be made by white van folks with a trailer on either side of the channel?

Judging from the little evidence that we have here in France, the main parcel organisations have washed their hands on sending items other than letters to the UK: the UK has been air brushed from the French Post Office website, Mondial Relay (DPD) and DHL.

I looked at buying a small item on UK Ebay and whereas the price from the trader (not a private individual) was £6, the Ebay carriage costs (Ebay are fairly frictionless on sales) where £15...

Essentially, the ball is in the court of the UK Gov. to sort this out.
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:04 am

Frogelan wrote:I looked at buying a small item on UK Ebay and whereas the price from the trader (not a private individual) was £6, the Ebay carriage costs (Ebay are fairly frictionless on sales) where £15...


Ebay shipping costs have been outrageous well before 2021, esp. their "global shipping program" which I understand is a total rip off only designed to increased profits from captive ebayers... that minimum 15quids shipping fare has greatly reduced my otherwise difficult to manage impulse to get auto parts from the proper side of the channel.

I'm not sure I grasped your comment on parcel shipping : are you saying that these services have been mostly cancelled as of Jan. 1st ?
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PostPost by: Frogelan » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:30 am

Nic

I looked at the website of La Poste, and the UK is no longer listed as a destination. Mondial Relay and DHL have also dropped it.

The difficulties are related to the complexity of the customs declarations, the need to confirm the rules of origin and the way that duties and VAT have to be paid. For the courier firms they can see that if the billable transport cost is say £20, customers are unlikely to want to pay handling fees that probably much higher (and in addition, they need to collect VAT in advance and carry out the financial transfers to do this).

With respect to these headaches, the Ebay costs seem to me to be fairly logical and indeed, I have been very impressed with the workings of USPO in my occasional purchases from the US.
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