Lotus Elan

Spa Summer Classic 2019 - 22 Elans taking part !

PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:05 am

Frogelan wrote:G'day Rohan

I had a long chat with Rob Wainwright who rebuilt this S1 R 22 for owner David Garrett. The body is apparently the original and the modifications seem to have happened later in 1967 (see Zurich Racing Car Show in November 1967 photo below):

https://photobucket.com/gallery/user/dg ... NTY=/?ref=

Other cars in the paddock had a similar modification.

Personally I would like to applaud David Garrett for going to the trouble of getting this car so carefully restored. There are other photos of the car if you did around on this link: https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2043 ... el-arches/


Its not the external body modifications I am commenting on as these happened in a very random pattern back in the day in the 60's. The FIA replica regulations allow you to essentially copy any car of the period if you can convince the officials that the body external style existed based on historical race photos.

My comment was around modification of the internal firewall to enable the engine to be pushed back around 50 mm and the fitting of the modern TTR headers in a cut into the firewall which did not exist back in the 60's as far as i am aware. None of the photos from the 60's in the links provided appear to show these engine bay mods ?

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PostPost by: 661 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:09 am

Frogelan wrote:Car N? 27: Barbot / Matos from Portugal. This car was the fastest Elan (by 5 hundreths of a second...) and finished just 8 seconds behind the leader shown above.

IMG_20190629_1118537.jpg


That looks suspiciously like TT himself in the photo?
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PostPost by: Frogelan » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:36 am

Rohan

The firewall mod is intended to avoid a fire, as the engine IMHO on the Foitek car was not at all set back.

I can send you other "anorak photos" if you are interested.

I have just run the maths and assuming a 4.1 final drive / Avons, the Schryver Shapecraft pulled 8200 rpm on the straight. This was a bit faster than the other cars and requires a fearless run through the Raidillion...

Graeme

TT was at the track and full of energy.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:23 pm

Frogelan wrote:Rohan

The firewall mod is intended to avoid a fire, as the engine IMHO on the Foitek car was not at all set back.

I can send you other "anorak photos" if you are interested.

I have just run the maths and assuming a 4.1 final drive / Avons, the Schryver Shapecraft pulled 8200 rpm on the straight. This was a bit faster than the other cars and requires a fearless run through the Raidillion...

Graeme

TT was at the track and full of energy.


The firewall mod is intended to get the weight back in the chassis and improve the handling. The "avoid a fire" excuse is what you tell the officials. To fit the TTR race exhaust I had to move my standard firewall S4 car engine forward and cock it to the carb side and drop it a little plus fit heat shielding due to the very close approach to the firewall. I wondered why it did not fit but now I know :lol: I am not allowed to modify the standard body either externally or internally in my class. The cut out in the firewall allows the engine to be shifted back and enables the rear curve on the No 4 pipe to be where the firewall used to be. The gap between the rear of the cylinder head and the firewall is certainly smaller and the whole firewall may have been moved back for all I know. Getting at the two top bell housing bolts would be a challenge on this car.

All I know it is not an original 26R modification as far as i can tell. But what would i know compared to the "experts" in the FIA. Their relatively loose regulation in some areas such as allowing "replicas" but tight in others such as requiring round main caps even if you can make them out of steel now when they were cast iron back then is something only a body like the FIA could arrive at IMHO

In the end it does not really matter as long as everyone is playing by the same rules in the class but it does change the relative competitiveness of different car makes now versus then

cheers
Rohan
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PostPost by: pir26r » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:14 pm

Hi, I am new to the forum (an Elan owner since March 1985).

I thought that I would add that David's qualifying time for the Spa 3 hours was 2:52.674. This was only headed by 4 Cobras.

The same car has been the highest placed Elan in the Spa 6 hour race several times: last year finishing 7th (again)preceded only by the Ford GT 40s.

The attached link may be of interest - in car footage of David's drive in the same Elan in the wet at the Silverstone classic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiUEoEVjhu0

Thanks
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PostPost by: seniorchristo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:30 pm

I have a question. Is there a class for Lotus Europas in these events. Seems like that would at least be the equal of an Elan. Or are they not old enough?
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PostPost by: toomspj » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:21 pm

Europas with twin cam are too modern for pre '66 races. I've got one (ex Peter Shaw car) and they are also heavy cars as standard.

Speeds quoted are not the top speeds on the Kemmel straight - speed trap was nearer the top of Radillon than the end of the straight. My S2 with a 4.44 diff was showing 8700 rpm on the Kemmel in testing - 100 less in the race as there was a lot of fluids on the track.

In my opinion David Garret's engine is not moved back. To fit TTR exhaust manifold the back pipe will foul the bulkhead in standard position - not correct, but is that the top issue?? There's lots more to worry about regarding valve sizes, modern engine internals etc.

In general Elan's are better policed than most other makes ...

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PostPost by: 1owner69Elan » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:12 am

Rohan's comment about the modern TTR race exhaust manifold fouling the bulkhead on his S4 and thereby necessitating a bunch of gyrations to get it to fit, got me wondering about my own manifold.

I have what I thought was a TTR race manifold. It was sold to me by my engine builder as a slightly used FIA manifold from a "26R" :

img_7157.jpg and


It certainly looks like the TTR ones. I connected this, with no modification, with the TTR race versions of the y-piece, center pipe, and race silencer. (Not "fast road large bore" but "race systems").

img_6342-1.jpg and


While I had to have the frame rail cut out and reinforced to clear the down pipes, there was no fouling of the bulkhead.

I believe TTR may have changed manifold suppliers around 2012 so maybe there is some difference between newer and older ones? Or body variations between S4's? Or my manifold is not a TTR one?

In any event, no bulkhead cutout needed nor adjusting the engine position.
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PostPost by: rgh0 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:19 am

I am sure there is enough variation in chassis and body and header dimensions that some headers fit on some cars without mods like yours and some require the the engine moved forward and angled and dropped a little like mine and some require a cut out like the 26 R example. The TTR headers push the available clearances to the limit and maybe beyond knowing what the FIA officials will allow

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PostPost by: Mike Spence » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:33 pm

I will post some pics @ Spa !

Michel
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PostPost by: Mike Spence » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:04 pm



I saw this book, nice story of the car !
Is this book for sale ?
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PostPost by: bigvalvehead » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:39 am

I dont think it raced originally with the firewall modification that has enabled the engine with TTR modern headers to be pushed back in the chassis by around 50mm to improve the balance :shock:

cheers
Rohan

Hi Rohan
The engine is in the std position its just that the TTR exhaust has no 4 cylinder really convoluted to make them the same length which requires relieving the bulkhead.

My 26R actually had the passenger footwell removed and a Mike the Pipe (Mike Randall) 4 into 1 ex system went over the outside of the chassis and out through the sill without a silencer!

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PostPost by: rgh0 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:43 pm

bigvalvehead wrote:I dont think it raced originally with the firewall modification that has enabled the engine with TTR modern headers to be pushed back in the chassis by around 50mm to improve the balance :shock:

cheers
Rohan

Hi Rohan
The engine is in the std position its just that the TTR exhaust has no 4 cylinder really convoluted to make them the same length which requires relieving the bulkhead.

My 26R actually had the passenger footwell removed and a Mike the Pipe (Mike Randall) 4 into 1 ex system went over the outside of the chassis and out through the sill without a silencer!

Dave


Hi Dave
The modification to run the headers through the footwell appears to have been relatively common in competition Elans back in the 60's. There is a non 26R here that has been a race car since early in its life before it came to Australia that has had this mod before it left the UK. Another mod was to delete the dynamo, run on the battery and run the headers forward of the mount and then down and back which enable a nice length 4 to 1 system. I ran for many years used my own designed exhaust headers (before I changed to the TTR design) with two pipes ahead of the engine mount and behind the alternator and two behind the mount.

By the way based on dyno tests a well designed 4 to 1 system using a Burns stainless venturi collector is worth 5 to 10 more hp in a 180hp engine compared to the TTR race header on a twincam

I presume all that means if you are building a 26R replica / GTS elan or genuine 26R you can duplicate any of these exhaust mods if you can demonstrate it was done back in the day by an Elan or 26R racing back then ?

However this still raises the question to whether the specific firewall cutout to fit the new style TTR headers should be allowed under the regulations if no cars with headers of that style and that cutout raced back in the day whether they are replicas or real 26R. I don't know enough about your historic regulations to answer that question but in Australia it would not be allowed, This is why I had to move my engine forward to fit in the TTR headers.

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Rohan
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PostPost by: Frogelan » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:02 pm

Chaps,

I have not yet got round to sorting out a manifold (I have bought a S/H one but it has yet to arrive) but I think that the key issue is the shape of the homologated manifold, rather than the issues relating to the body.

fia-exhaust-manifold.jpg and


This photo is screen snapped from the FIA Database.

I hope this helps!
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PostPost by: nmauduit » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:16 pm

Frogelan wrote:https://historicdb.fia.com/car/lotus-elan

This photo is screen snapped from the FIA Database.



yes, the certifying body https://historicdb.fia.com/car/lotus-elan specifies

Any standard part may be used.

Weber 45 DCOE may be used as per Extension D/V.
Airbox may be used providing they meet the period specification.
For Period F, GTS cars, dry sumps are not permitted.
Both aluminium and magnesium materials are allowed for bell housing, gearbox casing, tail shaft housing and differential housing.
High-capacity aluminium radiators may be used as well as header tank as period Homologation includes a high-capacity aluminium radiator and header tank.
Exhaust manifold must be as per Homologation Form No. 127.

Ford/Lotus Twin Cam engines: for cars of Period F the only main bearing caps admitted are the semi-circular ones to the original period specification. The cast iron main bearing caps for Ford/ Lotus Twin Cam 1558cm3 engines manufactured by Classic Motorsport Ltd are accepted as a replacement part. All replacement parts carry the number 95.1.


and the header competition option to replace the cast iron one :

competition_exhaust_manifold_as_per_homologation_form_no._127..jpeg and
form 127 elan competition header


ps: thank you Andrew for the Spa elan photos, I can never have enough of these...
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