Racing opinions sought...

[elansprint71]

I would welcome your expert opinions on this thread:

http://www.lotuselan.net/forums/free-parking-f19/what-constitutes-original-car-t22378.html

Is this sort of thing a) common, b) "legal" within the racing fraternity?

[rgh0]

In historic racing the traceable "identity" back to the orginally elibile car is what is important not the actual physical car in terms of creating eligibility. The deliberate building of a complete new physical car in one go that takes on the identity of the old car ( perhaps aided by taking on the orginal chassis numbers and ID plates ) is not uncommon even if frowned upon compared to the slow rebuilding of competition cars that take place over the years as they are raced damaged and rebuilt partially and periodically. My Elan would only contain less than half the parts that the car orginally contained when it rolled out of the Lotus Factory in 1968 but it has a traceable identity back to that car and the substitution has been a slow process over 40 years of use not a one off rebuild of a new car.

This looks like a classic case of where a new 26R style competition car has been built for historic racing based on the identity of a run down and heavily modified S2 and now the S2 complete but without identity is up for sale. The car probably has a stromberg engine as this was a cheap replacement for the orginal engine which has probably ended up as the starting point for the new engine in the new car

The problem of now having a old physical car that has no identity is often solved by creating a new identity and turning it into a barn find that has been "lost" for the last 40 years. At least this guy is being honest in selling the old car without identity openly as such

cheers
Rohan

[twincamman]

well Pete --Over here the idea of vintage racing was 'a place to run obsolete and uncompetitive old race cars for fun' as the cars were worthless and cluttering up the owners garages . These cars were prepped and given race track time on their own at regional events , this lead to organizations of enthusiasts into clubs It has blossomed into a multi million dollar business and lost the original concept .There are now folks who set themselves up as experts [sound familiar] to sell only the cars they bless as original .and those who rebuild cars based on an original nut or bolt and a number at huge expense . Quite frankly vintage racing in my opinion has become monetarily driven ---ed

[cabc26b]

Pete -

A.) yes it is common and as Ed points out, monetary gain will drive the behavior and the trend has been upward the last 10 years.
B.) legal - depends on the organization ( or event in the case of one event specialists) or since you mentioned the fraternal nature of the sport , whether or not you have the political capitol to abate the rules.

I find it interesting however to hear and see the variations on the definition of provenance and have always been disturbed at the notion that the a car's "history" is "ethereal" and can be transferred to another car that was substantially not there.....

George

[twincamman]

ok there was vintage car arrived at the local race shop that was trashed at Waterford hills--I mean JUNK --our opinion was 'jack the chassis up and replace everything on a current car and go real racing ';The owner was adamant about repairing the thing but as this was not safe he asked for a new chassis so a new chassis gear box motor and suspension was made for him as per the old one and the old plate added ----now is this a new car or a repair of the old car?????the rule here used to be you can replace the chassis but must retain the old one-- ed

[bcmc33]

I know of someone over the last 2 years has built a series of "26R" Elans (his words) from scratch using TTR lightweight body, chassis and associated parts, plus his own tuned engines. We worked-out that the cost of parts came to ?74k.

These cars were built for racing, and as long as they passed scrutineering for the classes in which they were entered - there was no problem, and any traceability to factory provenance was not an issue.
This is what I was told - so gullible me believed it. I'm sure someone will have some comments.

[jimj]

There was a K3 sold at auction last year for around half what a "real" one is worth........which is lots,there were only 32, but around 3 times the price of an exact replica. This K3 was a "real" one as it had an original chassis but the valuable car was the one which crashed in the 30s and was rebuilt with a new chassis at that time. The chassis was discarded but later someone obtained it, repaired it, and using original parts built an original K3. The difference is that the crashed car has continuous racing history. The last I heard the owner of the continuous history car was trying, unsuccessfully, to have the other one officially declared a replica to avoid confusion. Confusing? yes, but continuity is the key.
Jim

[Dag-Henning]

I know of someone over the last 2 years has built a series of "26R" Elans (his words) from scratch using TTR lightweight body, chassis and associated parts, plus his own tuned engines. We worked-out that the cost of parts came to ?74k.

These cars were built for racing, and as long as they passed scrutineering for the classes in which they were entered - there was no problem, and any traceability to factory provenance was not an issue.
This is what I was told - so gullible me believed it. I'm sure someone will have some comments.

- northing wrong abt. that / fully legal in FIA historic racing. Spec and looks has to be as homologated though....

[twincamman]

Hi Dag ---there should be no problem homologating a 26 r then as well over 500 have been built ed

[Dag-Henning]

- as long as people refer to it as a "replika" or lookalike, I guess it's ok.......( - like mine ! )