1969 Series 4 restoration project - urgent advice needed

[davecymru]

Good afternoon all,

I have already done a lot of digging and reading around the forum in order to try and find out answers but I have a bit of a "how long is a piece of string" query that I'm afraid that I'm going to have to ask.

Due to the unfortunate passing away of my next door neighbour, his partner is now looking at selling off his beloved Elan.

I have been in the process of building a kit-car for the past year or so and I'm in the position where I've not got a massive financial amount invested in it (just a lot of time and passion while i learn a lot of new skills) but I'm at the place where I'm just about to start spending serious money and my neighbour has mentioned that she may be selling the Elan and would i like first refusal.

I have been informed that it is a 1969, Series 4, 2 seat convertible with a Spyder (not sure of spelling?) chassis.
It is completely in pieces atm and the majority of them "should" be there i.e. all the main mechanical parts are there and that the owner has the original Lotus engine, but also has a Ford unit that was planned on being put in due to reliability and personal preference over the original Lotus unit.

So i suppose my questions to you knowledge lot are:

1) What should i be looking for before i decide if i want to buy this?
2) Are there any hard to find parts that i need to make sure are there or are in good condition?
3) Can anyone point me in towards somewhere where i can get a better understanding of the costs involved in a restoration of this level? Note: i have the time and (hopefully) skills to put into this project, it's the costs of parts that I'm really concerned about

Finally the biggie, what sort of area should i be expecting to pay for a complete restoration project of this nature in this condition? I realise this may be impossible to answer directly due to not knowing exactly what is included (we're working on that!), but if anyone knows how i could calculate this myself depending on what ends up being available, it would be greatly appreciated.


Many thanks in advance and once again, i apologise for the rather woolly nature of this first post and if these questions have been answered elsewhere i have been unable to find them so far, so feel free to point me in the right direction.

Rgds

Dave

[Elanintheforest]

Hi Dave
Sounds like a great opportunity although very sad circumstances.

The tricky bit first, although I think it?s pretty easy to answer?.the value. If the car is complete, but everything needs restoring, I?d put it at about ?5k. - ?7k.. If your car has very tatty paint / cracks in the shell, and the engine needs doing (which it sounds like it does), then go for the bottom of the range. Check that it is an original convertible. As it?s a 1969 car, the chassis number should start 45/ nnnn, with the Coupe starting 36/ nnnn. Many Coupes were chopped to become a convertible, and whilst it makes no difference to the car itself, it does make a difference to the value of the car; especially once it is fully restored, being non-original.

Project S4 convertibles that are all together and complete seem to sell for about ?8K - ?10k if they need a complete restoration?they have gone up a fair bit in the last couple of years, in line with many classic cars.

Parts are very easy to get for Elans, with most things available and very reasonably.

Things to make sure you do have are:

Door (chrome) window frames and glass, complete with electric window motors.

Dashboard complete with all switches and instruments, and especially the black plastic crash pad on top. The wood dash is easy to replace, the instruments etc. very difficult.

Plastic trim parts, including centre console, under dash trims and door trims.

Pedals, heater box, wiper motor and mechanism and plenum chamber

Seats

Hood frame.

Pretty much everything else is available new, or good second-hand.

The cars are very easy to work on, and if you can build a kit car, you can re-build an Elan. Armed with the workshop manual, the parts list, and a huge book written recently on the Elan, you?ll have 1500 pages of information showing you what to do and how to do it. And of course, there?s this forum!

As for costs, you can rebuild the suspension and brakes for ?1000, a new chassis is ?1600, an engine rebuild ?3000 ish (but you could do most of that yourself). Getting the body right is the most expensive bit, with a specialist re-paint (including repairing the gel coat cracks) coming out at ?5k - ?7k, but again, you can do a lot of that work yourself.

Good luck!

Mark

[Bob]

Dave,
I agree with Mark, but would add one thing, keep the orginal Lotus Engine, unless you are doing a full Zetec conversion http://www.spydercars.co.uk/ this is the supplier of the chassis which is not a chassis but a sub frame.
I have an S4 they are great. If you decide not to take it on PM me I will.
Bob

[nebogipfel]

I agree, keep the original Lotus Twincam in it otherwise all you will have is another kit car.

If you decide not to take it on I would suggest that to maximise the return for the unfortunate lady it should do well on Ebay as a restoration project (with a sensible starting price to protect her interests).

Elan prices do seem to be on the upward trend at the moment

[Gray]

Hi

Go for it, better than most kit cars.
The Spyder chassis is unlikely to need replacing as they do not rot like the standard ones.
Little bits can add up rapidly, although not expensive compared with a lot of cars, so look to see if the parts look as if they need replacing or suitable for refit.
Advice on values above looks sensible and long term will probably keep its value.

Regards Gray

[nebogipfel]

......Go for it, better than most kit cars.

please substitute all

[archigator]

IMHO the Smith's instruments are not that hard to aquire on eBay, and your original Smith's instruments (should they not work) can be rebuilt by outfits such as Nisonger, but it's not a cheap rebuild.

Definitely reuse the Lotus twin cam engine. Good luck! I've had my Elan for 23 years. You will not regret your decision!

Gary
'71 Sprint FHC
Miami, Florida

[PhilJohn]

Hi Dave, I'm rebuilding an Elan Sprint DHC. I've been on it a few years now and there are some days when I seriously wonder what I've done. BUT, all I can say is these cars are VERY SPECIAL. EVO magazine recently did a review of the 100 best drivers cars of all time. Any car that makes it into the top ten has got to be pretty special. But when the original design of one of those cars is approaching 50 years old and every body raves about it still, you know that car has to be really special indeed. That car is the Elan. Dave, it's a no brainer. It's better than any kit car you could ever hope to buy. A good one can still embarass many much newer so called sports cars point to point. Do a good resto and it will appreciate in value. There's massive parts support and some of the friendlyist, most helpful enthusiasts you could ever wish to meet. Buy it, restore it and enjoy it. And as a bonus, you'll probably make your neighbour very happy to see her husbands project finally back together. I live in the West Midlands and you're welcome to have a look at my car any time.Good luck, Phil

[davecymru]

Many thanks for all the replies so far, it's been very useful in trying to track down exactly what my neighbour has.

At the moment I've told her that as long as the majority of the parts are there (especially the 'must have' parts that Mark listed) and it's not all too far gone then i will put the Lambo project on hold and i will have this off of her

But...... The story of this car turns out to be much more complicated than we (the seller and i) had first thought and i thought that the tale so far may prove of some interest to you lot, so settle down with a cup of tea and a biscuit, as this is a doozie!

It turns out that there are two Lotuses (Loti?) for which log books exist, with bits of a possible 3rd being in existence.

The one i looked at is a series 2 body on the Spyder chassis with an original period Ford engine (pre-crossflow? / pushrod?) ready to go into it.
But, the Series 2 body and original Series 2 chassis (which is around somewhere) is "spoken for" by a very good friend of the owner who wants to do a full restoration in order to take it racing.

Which leaves the Series 4. Who's original chassis had apparently been driven over by a tractor whilst it was out of the car (don't ask, apparently it's a long story) and the Spyder chassis was bought to replace that.
The body for the Series 4 is currently in Norfolk (we're in Somerset, again.. don't ask!) and 'should' be the original Series 4 bodyshell.
The logbook for the Series 4 currently looks as though it has the Ford crossflow listed as the fitted engine? But we're double checking this. It actually turns out that there are 3 engines laying around, one Lotus twin cam, one crossflow and i assume the other is the Series 2 engine? But once again we're all still playing detective to try and confirm this.

The Series 4 logbook also shows that the chassis number starts 36/ nnnn which Mark seems to suggest means that it should be a hard top? But as far as any of the owners friends (all Lotus owners over the years) can remember, it's always been a convertible as long as they've known it. So we can only assume that either it was originally a convertible or that as Mark hints, it may have been 'converted', but it would have been a long, long time ago!

Last night we went through the list of "ideally included parts" that Mark had posted and I've got a meeting tomorrow afternoon with one of the owners friends who knows a bit more about the cars so that we can try and establish what is actually available as some original and some replacement parts are scattered amongst a few of the friends. (that is where the suspected car 3 comes in!)

It also turns out that the Series 4 interior may have been "burnt out" when it was bought xx years ago, but at the moment none of us can find out exactly what that means, what was damaged, what still exists of the original and what replacement parts were bought. (if there were a gibbering-wreck smilie i could use at this point i would!)

So at the moment there is a body shell, that after looking at the chassis number may or may not be the original one, but it is an original Lotus Elan Series 4 convertible shell and was fitted when it was bought.
There is an after market Spyder Chassis that has been dry stored, and is in good condition and has brakes and suspension fitted, but we're not sure if those parts are from the Series 2 or 4. (fun fun fun)
There's a Lotus twin cam engine that may or may not be the original one and a Ford engine that may currently be registered as the fitted one.
And then there are lots and lots of boxes of parts both here and with family and friends that we are now in the process of trying to get all in one place in order to sort through.


So, all in all, it's complicated! and while whatever phoenix rises from the ashes of all these parts could never be classed as 100% original, from what i can see from looking around this forum and other sources, i'd say that 80%+ of you have all modernised your Elans to some extent or other anyway so I'm not overly worried about total originality!

Personally I'm already quite taken in by the whole history of this car and as long as the parts don't turn out to be complete boxes of rust, then I'm very likely to be doing something very silly very soon!

Now if i can only find a parts list (possibly with diagrams and pictures) then our job may be somewhat simpler. But i suspect there is one on here somewhere, so i shall have a dig.


I told you it was a doozie!

[paddy]

Dave - I guess you're in Wales - if there is someone on the forum who lives not too far away they might be kind or interested enough to come and have a look with you. Anyone who has been through a rebuild before will be able to spot the gotchas or missing bits much more easily.

As Mark said, if all of those essential bits are there then nothing else is impossible to get, but it does affect the cost. I think understanding the existence and condition of the engine is the key bit - it doesn't need to be the original engine, but if there's no twincam then I think it is a much harder decision.

Paddy

[512BB]

Dave,

You mentioned that the interior had been burnt out. So have a good look at the seats, centre console, backboard, steering wheel, dash switches, In fact all interior parts, as they are very expensive to replace if they are not present, especially if you want to keep to a modicum of originallity. A pair of correct S4 seats could cost you ?600, and a signed Chapman wheel, which the car should have, up to ?500.

If it were me, I would also want sight of the bodyshell, to see what condition that was in, even if it meant a 200 odd mile round trip to look at. As has been said, a good respray will cost upwards of ?6K today.

Good luck with it.

Leslie

[Bob]

Dave,
I have read all the advice you have been given, I am a fairly newbie to Elan's can I suggest you invest in Brian Buckland's Book
elan-f14/brian-buckland-book-t2068.html
have a look at this link, or do a search on Brian Buckland, I found it full of invaluable information. Get it from Club Lotus about ?49 when I bought mine some months ago.
Its good bedtime reading. It will answer in photos all or most of your questions.

You can also phone Lotus Cars Archive, if you give them the chassis numbers ie 26/xxxxx for the S2, 36/xxxx for the S4 FHC or 45/xxxx for the DHC etc, they will give you the year of manufacture and correct engine number for the car. That is stamped on the side of the block L xxxxxx, you can match what you have.
Bob

[stugilmour]

Hi Dave.

Now if i can only find a parts list (possibly with diagrams and pictures) then our job may be somewhat simpler. But i suspect there is one on here somewhere, so i shall have a dig.

If you want a quick overview of the car components before purchasing the various reference books specific to the model, you may find Ray's on-line parts catalog helpful:

http://rdent.com/manuals/index.html

The Buckland book is very good, and available directly from the author. In addition, the Workshop Manuals & Parts Books are available directly from Lotus. I got my various books here:

Edited to remove link as per Gary's post here:

elan-f14/factory-parts-list-t21914.html

Jeff mentioned recently he wants to remove any links to electronic copies of the manuals that are not honoring Lotus copyrights. If a link to xxxxx xxxxxxxx'x comprehensive site above falls into this category I will remove it. The manuals I got from xxx are bound reprints, whereas I think the Lotus originals tend to be binders.

HTH

[andyelan]

Hi Dave

While I don't want to put too much of a damper on thing, could I just say that I would tread very very carefully here. The most important thing you need if buying this car is a clear identity. If you just purchase a box of bit then no matter how carefully you put it all back together it's always going to be a "bitza". The problem is that will cost exactly the same to rebuild as a genuine original car but will will only have a fraction of the value. There's also the problem that if you ever want to sell the car you might have difficulty covincing a prospective buyer that it is indeed a genuine car.

I know many people will say they are not bothered about resale value as they don't ever intend to sell their cars, I however do not take this view. Restoring a car involves of a large investment of both time and money so I believe it's most important to proceed wisely.

Just my thoughts anyway

Regards
Andy

[Bruce Crowthorne]

Yes go for it!
They are all a big hassle - but nothing terribly complex.
IMHO best to try and keep it as original as you can - no point in upsetting the purists - and it will end up being worth more if you ever sell it.

On price and costs - the 5 to 7 buy price is about right (although sounds like you are edging towards 5 based on the risks)
Rebuild price depends on you, but I did mine for a bit over 6k including a re-spray, but I didn't have to replace the chassis. Bear in mind I stopped counting once it was back on the road!!
Took me 2 years, but again "how long is a bit of string"?