high torque starter motors

[john.p.clegg]

Dear All
Firstly I would like to thank all of you who replied to my PM regarding high torque starter motors.

After watching a second hand Brise go for ?201

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOTUS-TWIN-CA ... 1c38b51575

I decided to do some research ask some questions and look around?

A little background?? .the plus2 is fitted with a Megasquirt home-made fuel injection system and during the early days starting was somewhat hit and miss, partly ( no, completely) to me not having dialled in the required characteristics and also the huge Voltage drop during cranking?.the latter was cured by the fitment of a second battery wired in parallel in the boot?.it?s still there?but it?s time to get rid of it?.and seeing it?s nearly Christmas have decided that Santa is going to treat me to a new high torque starter motor


The main contenders are (in no particular order)

Brise http://www.brise.co.uk/Lotus_starter_motors.html


Wosp http://www.wosperformance.co.uk/product ... er-motors/

Edge http://www.burtonpower.com/parts-by-bra ... _group=326


Powerlite http://www.powerlite-units.com/products/stater-motors/

Not forgetting in the US of A.

Gustafson http://www.gustafsonmachine.com/


Because of the tight space in the engine bay I would prefer an axial starter motor (i.e. one without the solenoid ?bump? on the outside ) and so the choice is narrowed

Looking at the contenders

Brise M892909AXG

Wosp LMS008/9AX

Edge They don?t seem to do one?If you know better..

Powerlite RAC802

And my favourite, just because it has a ?nose? that supports the pinion (where the greatest amount of Ooomph is) is the powerlite RAC802 at ?222 delivered to my doorstep.

Before I get my wallet out and disturb the moths from their hibernation I would welcome any comments, constructive or not...

Thanks
John

[Bill]

John

Do it - well worth the cost. My Elan is '64 factory stage 2 modified with higher compression, I went thru 2 starters (bent pinion shafts) and about 4 mashed pinion gears in 35,000 miles before I changed my prince of darkness starter to an adapted gear driven Nissan unit. Never a problem since.

Bill

[elanman999]

John,
I have fitted the type with the bump on the side, similar to the Powerlite 418 to my cars. They work very well, starting much easier than with the original.
However I would suggest that when fitting you do need to check how far the pinion ejects during starting. On both of mine the pinion was engaging with under half of the width of the starter ring. I had to thin the flange down to achieve full engagement.
Cheers
John

[fatboyoz]

John and John,
I can second the need to do a depth check for ring-gear engagement after fitting one of the pre-engaged starters. Check for both clearance from flywheel when starter is at rest and also for ring-gear engagement at full throw.
Cheers,
Colin.

John,
I have fitted the type with the bump on the side, similar to the Powerlite 418 to my cars. They work very well, starting much easier than with the original.
However I would suggest that when fitting you do need to check how far the pinion ejects during starting. On both of mine the pinion was engaging with under half of the width of the starter ring. I had to thin the flange down to achieve full engagement.
Cheers
John

[john.p.clegg]

Yes, I've got lots to do this winter (when I've pulled the engine) one is to check the engagement as mentioned,the other is to check the oil level/dipstick..

John

[Elanintheforest]

Last year I bought an Escort Twincam in lovely condition, except that the starter motor sounded like a chainsaw going through metal. The previous owner has only fitted it a few months earlier, and it's a Brise.

I took the car up to Paul Matty to get Roy (workshop boss) to check it all out (he hill-climbs a Twink Escort and knows his stuff) expecting that the engine would have to come out for a new ring gear. He took the Brise out, inspected the ringgear, which was fine, and put a standard motor back it.

The starting is now quiet, as it should be, and the engine turns over quickly and fires up without fuss.

My BDA engine Plus 2, with 11:1 C/R also has a standard starter, which does the job fine.

My S3 Elan Coupe always had starter problems, until I had the engine re-built by Miles Wilkins back in the late 80s. The ring gear was knackered, due to loose starters over the years, and Miles put a new one in, complete with a new starter. Not a problem since, and it's nice and quiet.

So my experience is that the standard setup works very well if it's in good condition, even up to a reasonably high compression ratio. I'm sure that when you get into race-spec engines that you would need a high torque starter, if you could put up with the noise.

You're very welcome to try my Brise in your car and see what it's like...it just may not have likes Escorts! As per Colin and John's comments above, it may not have been installed properly. Roy did say something about the chamfer on the ring gear being on the wrong side for these pre-engaged starters, and that ring gears with a chamfer on both sides of the tooth may be required for the standard and pre-engaged starters? To be honest, I was just so pleased that the engine didn't have to come out and that the standard kit worked as it should that I didn't absorb what he said, so I may have got the wrong end of the stick altogether about the chamfer!!

Mark

[john.p.clegg]

Mark

Yes,I can see the need for the chamfer to be on the clutch side for the inertia-type starter and the engine side for the pre-engaged starter...I'm sure I have seen ring gears with chamfers on both sides...and chamfers on the engagement end of the pinion

Can you remember how many teeth the starter had?

Thanks for your offer of a test of the Brise but I think my mind is made up due to the supporting nose of the Powerlite

Thanks
John

[Elanintheforest]

It's a 9 tooth...see pics below. Neat looking thing and it must be half the weight of a standard motor...but the noise!!

And I just saw the price on the website....?350!!!! I was going to bin it but I think that eBay beckons!!

Mark

[john.p.clegg]

Mark

" After watching a second hand Brise go for ?201 "

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOTUS-TWIN-CA ... 1506394698

John

[RichardHawkins]

Dear All,

I have read various threads on this subject, and am puzzled by the need for a reduction gear/high torque motor.

Perhaps someone (Bill Will) could help. I thought that the critical feature was power of the motor. For example, if the motor is a 2 kilowatt machine, and that is as much as it can produce, then surely fitting a reduction gear will increase the torque, but at a lower rotational (cranking) speed. The starter motor may sound more energetic, but is the engine turning any faster?

Have I missed something?

Richard Hawkins

[twincamman]

All 3 lotus cars I own have newer Niissan replace ment starters ...one of the Gustof starters wrecked the flywheel on the ?lan as the side retaining 10 mm bolts were too short and allowed the unit to move around eating the ring gear up Longer bolts cured the problem and the 7 now has this starter on it .The ?lan now sports a High dollar race starter from Lee racing and the Europa has a Nissan starter from Ray at R.D. Enterprises and all work well and are easy to replace the brushes in for 5dollars or so,HOWEVER my bug eye still has the original Lucas starter from 1961 so I think the problem may lie in the Lucas rebuilders court and not with the original Lucas part ......Ed

[GrUmPyBoDgEr]

Dear All,

I have read various threads on this subject, and am puzzled by the need for a reduction gear/high torque motor.

Perhaps someone (Bill Will) could help. I thought that the critical feature was power of the motor. For example, if the motor is a 2 kilowatt machine, and that is as much as it can produce, then surely fitting a reduction gear will increase the torque, but at a lower rotational (cranking) speed. The starter motor may sound more energetic, but is the engine turning any faster?

Have I missed something?

Richard Hawkins

Hi Richard,

I think that the reduction gear starter motors are smaller than the type used originally on the Elan.
It is this feature that people favour because they draw less current during the starting phase thus leaving a bit more over for the ignition system.

The chamfer on the ring gear has been discussed in earlier threads but as Mark has reminded us, this has to be on the correct side so that the starter pinnion can engage with it without writing off itself or the ring gear.

Cheers
John

[twincamman]

Wellll I substituted my starters because the replacement Lucas rebuilds simply failed after a very short time the same with the rebuilt Lucas alternators or generators they are replaced with Nissan Denso also and I require dependability over originality..And the gear is chamfered on the starter gear ..ed

[fatboyoz]

Richard,
My need for a new type (Nippondenso) starter had nothing to do with torque, but everything to do with the pre-engagement feature. The ring-gear on my car was, decidedly, mashed from years of crash engagement, as this is the method that the Lucas starter uses. My ring-gear has the chamfer on both front and back, this combined with the chamfer on the starter pinion makes, I trust, for a long lived ring-gear and starter.
Cheers,
Colin.

Dear All,

I have read various threads on this subject, and am puzzled by the need for a reduction gear/high torque motor.

Perhaps someone (Bill Will) could help. I thought that the critical feature was power of the motor. For example, if the motor is a 2 kilowatt machine, and that is as much as it can produce, then surely fitting a reduction gear will increase the torque, but at a lower rotational (cranking) speed. The starter motor may sound more energetic, but is the engine turning any faster?

Have I missed something?

Richard Hawkins

[rgh0]

Wellll I substituted my starters because the replacement Lucas rebuilds simply failed after a very short time the same with the rebuilt Lucas alternators or generators they are replaced with Nissan Denso also and I require dependability over originality..And the gear is chamfered on the starter gear ..ed

Yes I agree the biggest challenge with the original starters is getting a good rebuild done. Fundamentally a good original starter in an engine in good condition and you will have no problem. However that is not easy to do as most of us don't rebuild our own starters to new condition.

A modern gear reduction unit will have lower current draw and higher output torque ( and be in better condition as you can buy them new). Cranking speed may be slower but speed is not important. Its the ability to turn the engine through the compression stroke that matters not how fast you do it. The lower current draw means also more voltage available for the ignition which helps.

A pre-engage starter is better than an inertia ( bendix gear) starter as the starter pinion does not get thrown out when the engine kicks and it does less damage to the gear and starter with its more reliable and gentle engagement method.

I have never spent big money on the specialist "high torque" starters. I have used the Bosch pre-engage ( but not gear reduced) starters that were used in the 1970 Escorts here in Australia at least and cheap and reliable. They have a 3 bolt mounting but run happily using just the 2 bolts in an Elan bell housing. Bosch can supply a 9 tooth pinion that I use but the 10 tooth seems to work also. My 78 Esprit uses the same starter. This starter has sufficient torque to turn over my 12.5 compression ratio short duration cam race engines so a normal road engine is no issue, but then an original Lucas starter in good condition will do the same. The only hassle with this starter is that the "lump" on the side hangs down and is close to the handbrake cable in an Elan or Plus 2 In a Spyder chassis the handbrake cable touches it as the Spyder front mounting point is higher than in the original Lotus chassis, I made up a small extension to moving the cable mounting point down to its original position in my Spyder chassis plus 2 because of this .

A pre-engage starter is not as sensitive as an inertia starter to not having a chamfer on the flywheel ring gear on the side it engages from. Many ring gear are chamfered on both sides but I have seen pre-engage starters work fine into the non chamfer side of a ring gear. At worst the pinion blocks and you just need to try again to get the gears to mesh and the starter start turning.

Whatever you do in terms of starter from the many options make sure you check both the clearance and the engagement depth of the pinion

cheers
Rohan